The Geo Method / Black and Gray Water Holding Tank

[Geometricenigma]

I noticed someone plagerized, and altered, my article on this forum a while back so I thought I'd post it properly. The link is to the original post on another site with supporting links. Permission is granted to copy and post the article UNMODIFIED, UNEDITED, AND WITH PROPER CREDIT. The low-life, belly crawling plagerist knows who he is.
-------------------------------------------------------

The Original Geo Method Homepage and Blog (http://home.mindspring.com/~cbruni/index.html)

Black and Gray Water Holding Tank Maintenance

The Geo Method

By Charles Bruni
cbruni@mindspring.com
Renton, Washington
U.S.A.

Everyone who owns an RV should be concerned with maintaining its wastewater tanks. Problems with wastewater tanks can and should be avoided. Wastewater tank repair is expensive. Due to health concerns, many service facilities will not work on wastewater tanks and lines until the tanks have been completely emptied and sanitized. This may be quite difficult when the tank(s) is in need of repair. So, common sense dictates that the tanks should be kept relatively clean at all times. Additionally, improper use of the wastewater tanks can lead to a build up of solid wastes, which in itself may cause the system to fail.

I've discovered very simple, effective, and inexpensive methods of maintaining my wastewater tanks in a relatively clean condition at all times. I developed these methods myself through my understanding of chemistry, physics, and biology with a smidgen of common sense thrown in for good measure. I also read my RV owner's manual. Although we are not full time RVers we use our fifth wheel camper at least one weekend a month. We never use public bathing and toilet facilities. In other words, our wastewater tanks are fairly heavily used. Since I've met a number of RVers who don't seem to know how to maintain their wastewater tanks I thought many RVers would find my tips useful. If you have not been maintaining your tanks I believe you will be pleasantly surprised the first time you employ these tips. I do these things and they work.

RVs are equipped with waste water HOLDING tanks; NOT septic tanks. Those holding tanks are nothing more than chamber pots. Chamber pots should be cleaned and sanitized after their contents are disposed of. The Geo Method is based on this fact.


1. DUMP A FULL TANK

When you are camping and your RV is connected to a sewer/septic intake, leave the drain valves closed until the tank is full and ready to dump. Dumping a full tank provides a sufficient quantity of water to flush solids from the tank. Leaving the drain valves open allows the water to drain off without flushing out solid waste. That solid waste will collect in the tank(s) and cause problems over time. If your tanks are not full when you are ready to dump them, fill them with fresh water first, and then dump them.


2. DUMP TANKS IN ORDER FROM DIRTIEST TO CLEANEST

In other words, dump the black (commode) water tank first, then dump the galley tank, then dump the bathroom tank. This way you will be flushing out the dirtiest water with progressively cleaner water.


3. USE WATER SOFTENER, DETERGENT, and CHLORINE BLEACH

This stuff is amazing and it works. Buy a couple of boxes of powdered water softener at the grocery store. You'll find it located with or near the laundry detergent products. I prefer Calgon Water Softener because it dissolves quickly in water. Cheaper water softeners work just as well but dissolve more slowly. Dissolve two (2) cups of the water softener in a gallon of hot water. Then, pour the solution down the drain into the empty tank. Use two cups of softener for each wastewater tank in your RV. The tank's drain valve should be closed otherwise the softened water will just drain out. Then use the tank(s) normally until it is full and drain it normally. Add a cup of laundry detergent to the black (commode) water tank at the same time you add water softener. This will help clean the tank. The gray water tanks should already contain soap through normal use.

The water softener makes the solid waste let go from the sides of the tanks. If you've ever taken a shower in softened water you know that after rinsing the soap from your body your skin will feel slick. That's because all the soap rinses away with soft water. Softened water also prevents soap scum from sticking in the tub. Get the connection? With softened water gunk washes away instead of sticking. The same thing applies to your RV's wastewater tanks.

I use a clear plastic elbow connector to attach my sewer drain line to the wastewater outlet on my RV. It allows me to see how well things are progressing during a wastewater dump. Before I began using water softener regularly the black water tank's water was brown, the galley tank's water was brownish, and the bathroom tank's water was white. The first time I added water softener to the tanks the water coming from the black water tank was actually black (not brown) and the kitchen tank's water was also black (not brownish). The bathroom tank's water remained white. That told me that the water softener had actually done what I had intended for it to do and made solid waste, which had been stuck to the interior of the tanks, let go and drain away. I added water softener (and laundry detergent to the black tank) to all the wastewater tanks for the next few dumps to be certain all the solid waste possible had been cleaned away. The wastewater only appeared black on the initial treatment. I now add water softener and detergent to each tank once after every few dumps to maintain the system.

Too little water softener may not be of sufficient concentration to work effectively. Too much water softener will NOT hurt the tanks. So, if the amount you used didn't quite do the job, then use more the next time. Don't forget the laundry detergent.

Occasionally, I pour a half gallon of liquid bleach into each tank to deodorize, sanitize and disinfect them. I add the bleach when the tank is about half full, and then continue to use the tank normally until it is full and ready to dump. I no longer use the blue toilet chemical because it isn't necessary. I have no odors coming from my black water tank. The chlorine bleach kills the bacteria, which is primarily responsible for waste water tank odor. Generic brand liquid bleach is cheap and very effective.


4. USE A WATER FILTER ON YOUR FRESH WATER INTAKE LINE

Most fresh water contains sediment. Sediment will accumulate in your wastewater tanks and your fresh water lines. It also tends to discolor your sinks, tub/shower, and commode. I use the disposable type and have found that they eventually fill up and begin restricting the fresh water flow resulting in low pressure. That's how I know it's time to get a new filter. It works, it's cheap, it avoids problems, do it. When I fill my fresh water tank I attach the filter to the end of the hose and fill the tank with filtered water.


SOME OTHER THOUGHTS

WATER, WATER, WATER - and more water! The Geo Method assumes you are hooked up to a plentiful clean water supply, and that you have access to a sewer. The water softener will make the gunk let go. That's only half the battle. After the gunk lets go it must then be flushed through the relatively small drain opening in the bottom of the tank. That takes water. Lots of water.

Will The Geo Method work even if most of the time I'm NOT hooked up to water and sewer? YES! Just use common sense. If you dry camp ninety percent of the time just keep water softener and detergent in your tanks (especially the black tank) while you're dry camping. This will keep gunk from sticking to the tanks. When you are hooked up to sewer and water take the opportunity to fill the tanks with fresh water and flush the tanks. Keep flushing them until the water runs clear. I know it works because I've done it.

Never put regular toilet tissue in your RV's black tank. Only use toilet tissue which is approved for RV and/or septic tank use. Regular toilet tissue may eventually dissolve, but not before causing a clog in your black tank.

I believe occasionally traveling with partially filled wastewater tanks that contain softened water promotes cleaning by agitating the water. The same goes for chlorine bleach.

I believe this process works faster and more efficiently during warm weather. However, I know it works well even during cool/cold weather.

I believe the process works best the longer the water softener remains in the tanks. So, I don't add water softener during periods of heavy wastewater generation. I wait until I know we won't be generating wastewater quickly so that the softened water remains in the tanks for several days before dumping.

If you have an older RV you may have to use water softener and detergent several times initially to completely clean the tanks of residue.


I add a small amount of chlorine bleach to the fresh water tank twice a year to disinfect and sanitize the fresh water tank and fresh water lines. A weak chlorine bleach solution will not hurt you. However, it certainly makes the water taste bad. When we have chlorine in the fresh water system we use bottled water for drinking and cooking until the chlorine is gone. YES, we drink the filtered water that we have in the fresh water tank. NO, it has never tasted funny or caused any problems.

No, I do NOT do the ice cube thing. The Geo Method works just fine without ice cubes.

My tanks are plastic and my pipes are PVC.

Don't be afraid to use your tanks. Just use common sense about their care and maintenance.

These tips are inexpensive to do. Some of them don't cost anything. You have nothing to lose in trying them and I encourage you to do so. I actually feel a certain amount of pride in the condition and cleanliness of both my waste and fresh water systems. Naturally, these tips make dumping a much more pleasant and sanitary procedure.

If you have odors in any of your water systems these procedures should eliminate them. Odors indicate a sanitary problem and degrade the enjoyment you derive from your RV.

When my RV is parked and not in use I place stoppers in the sink and tub drains. This forces the wastewater tanks to vent through the vent pipes to the outside instead of through the drains into the RV. Water evaporates. Once the drain traps dry out during periods of non-use, nothing is there to prevent gasses (odor) from venting into the camper. Use stoppers when your RV is stored.

Copyright(c)Charles Bruni
__________________________________________________ _____________

Please consider printing this information and posting it on bulletin boards in RV parks and campgrounds you visit. Fellow RVers will benefit from your consideration.
__________________________________________________ _____________

[Poppa]

Read your post and it looks real good, so I copied it and pasted it the general RV'ing section.

Thanks

[Kirk]

Charles Bruni, you are paranoid!

[C Nash]

Kirk, think he has a masters degree in name calling :(

[Geometricenigma]

Kirk,

Please stop following me around the internet from forum to forum. If you don't like The Geo Method the solution is simple; don't use it. People who try The Geo Method like it because it works and it's spreading rapidly through the RV community. Get over it.

[Kirk]

Hey Charles, the great, see this link:

http://www.rvusa.com/forum/main/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4027

[Geometricenigma]

Kirk,

Now that you've had your say please go away and leave me alone.

[moovinon]

Having lived in a house with a septic system I have a problem with the amount of bleach being dumped into the system when you empty your tanks.If everyone uses this system ,all campgrounds will have system failure and noone will allow dumping.I know you don't consider system failure your problem cause you're moving on.If someone else got to the next destination before you you will be out of luck.

[Kirk]

To learn a bit more about this subject, read the post from Aldee that is on this thread:
http://escapees.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/154607461/m/6611092031/p/1

[SnowbirdInFlight]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><font size="2">I've discovered very simple, effective, and inexpensive methods of maintaining my wastewater tanks in a relatively clean condition at all times. I developed these methods myself through my understanding of chemistry, physics, and biology with a smidgen of common sense thrown in for good measure</font id="size2">.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<font face="Comic Sans MS">Once again Geo, thanks for the great method to clean my RV holding tanks. As I said in another forum, http://www.rvusa.com/forum/main/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4027
my husband and I went to Canada and back from Illinois. It was a month long trip so our tanks got a full workout since we never use public facilities. This method worked fantastic! I'm known in my family for my 'super' nose. It's a curse when the holding tank is stinky, lol. However, by using this method I was spared! The tanks are cleaner than ever and I can tell the difference. Thanks again for this simple, yet effective treatment program. :) </font id="Comic Sans MS">

[Geometricenigma]

I'm not the only one who knows that the Eco-Kook Luddites are poorly educated and illinformed. Thanks Snowbird.

Cut and paste from original post:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/15871487.cfm

From an article on the manufacture of bleach and it's uses...

===snip===
Not happy with the title of "World's Most Popular Germ-Killer", bleach is also used in great quantities by industries worldwide. An enormous commercial market for industrial bleach exists, where it used for wastewater treatment, drinking water disinfection and textile and paper manufacturing. It is used to treat sewage and industrial wastes to reduce odors and increase digesting efficiency. Hypochlorite bleach neutralizes sulfer hydrogen gas (SH) and ammonia (NH3). It detoxifies cyanide baths in metal finishing industries and treats cyanide effluents created by gold mining. Bleach is also used to recover precious metals from manufacturing solutions. Air scrubbing systems use bleach to destroy pathogens and neutralize gases. Without bleach, much of the food processing done in North America would not be possible. It is used to clean dairy equipment and food processing equipment, in fruit, vegetable, mushroom, hog, beef, poultry, fish and maple syrup processing. One of the first uses for commercial uses bleach was its use as a cotton whitener. It remains one of the most important chemicals used in textile manufacturing. Bleach is also used to whiten paper, soap, straw, wood and many other organic products.
===/snip===

I am being a little more serious this time, but for the love of Pete™ did any of you people pay attention in your high school chemistry classes? This is so basic (Pun intended although I am sure it will fly well over most of the heads in here.), but you would have to have a few gallons of a much stronger concentration of bleach than the 5.25% you're buying in the local Piggly Wiggly. Let's follow this up by topping off the tank with the strongest ammonia you can get your hands on....now we can get the sort of vigorous chemical reaction that you junior chemist's are thinking about.

We are talking about 1 or 2 cups of bleach in a 40 gallon tank...let's cut it in half and call it a 20 gallon tank....let's get really crazy and dump a gallon of bleach in there.....I am still not worried. Let's pretend I use 2 cups of 5.25% bleach in my holding tank each time I dump. I am a lazy idiot so I won't even bother putting a couple of gallons of water in my holding tank for good measure. (Another one of those danged ole puns....) I still don't have much to worry about and I would have to do it over and over to have an appreciable affect on the gate seal. Even if the gate seal goes prematurely, like in a few years or so....I can rebuild it for a couple of bucks and 5 minutes of my time. Ooooooh, big deal.

This misinformation is annoying. People who have no clue what they are talking about spewing some trash they have heard 4th hand really peeve me. I don't care if your uncle's cousin's third ex-wife had it happen to her, it's not true. I don't know everything, I don't even know that much, but I did pay attention in school and I can look up most anything I need to know in minutes using this new fangled Internet thingy. Here's another suggestion for you; I would highly recommend that you look at multiple sources for your information, especially if there is potential for injury to you or others. Sometimes I wish these bogus stories were true, there would be far fewer people driving the highways without functioning turn signals.

Much of the information shared on this forum is extremely useful and is a great service to those who need it the most. A minor problem exists in that some of the information is wrong. A huge problem exists in that some of the information is not only wrong, but dangerous. I would like to personally thank those who have spent there own time and money resolving an issue and then sharing that information with the rest of us. I have saved much time and frustration reading these boards, but I know well enough that not everything is correct and I need to use my own common sense with some issues. Other issues require that I research the problem in greater detail before making a decision. Adding a cup of bleach to my holding tank doesn't take rocket science (another obscure pun) to realize that it will cause no harm to myself or my tank. One dollar worth of bleach is much better for your tank and the enviroment than $11 worth of blue crap. (He did it again, those danged old puns.)

[gunny]

Well ****!!! This little topic turned into a real urination contest now didn't it?? Wonder why?

I may try this method, my MH is brand new and nobodys has used any of the holding tanks yet. But this sounds as good as any method I ever heard of. Besides some protest to loudly and this makes me wonder.

Gunny

[SnowbirdInFlight]

Hmmm, couldn't find the last page on this.

[DL Rupper]

Hey Snowbird, does this mean we are off and running again on this subject. I love it. Lordy, Lordy, Lordy. Let the fun begin. :evil: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[SnowbirdInFlight]

DL Rupper - 3/1/2007 3:42 PM Hey Snowbird, does this mean we are off and running again on this subject. I love it. Lordy, Lordy, Lordy. Let the fun begin. :evil: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:</p>

Ha ha. Actually I was curious because I clicked on here and went to read the last post and there wasn't anything after the first page. I guess they deleted all the good stuff, lol. :angry: </p>

[utmtman]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But is a pissing contest necessary? A lot of people join these forums to learn from others and others ideas. Not to read about how others dont care for other people or their opinions. I think it would be better if people who have harsh feeling towards other people keep it to themselves and off the boards. If they cant I am sure that if enough people complained about it they could very easily be removed whether they are new or have been here since 2001. So please lets all get back to the purpose of this forum and try to get along.
One mans opinion!!!!!

[SnowbirdInFlight]

Geesh, threats? How nice. :o

[utmtman]

Sorry it wasnt meant as a threat. I was just tired of reading the garbage. Thought maybe it would make people think before going swimming in the black water. LOL

[benwd]

utah----there are all kinds of threads on this and any forum. bantering livens things up on some threads from time to time. if you don't like that then don't read them. there is no rule on this or any other forum that says you have to read stuff you don't like.

[utmtman]

Ben, do you know if a thread is good or bad without reading it? If you can tell us how to do that it would probably make may people happy.

[benwd]

utah-----as soon as you detect something you don't like click on another thread or click out. it's sort of like using a tv remote.

[SnowbirdInFlight]

Now boys!
</p>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/picturepurfect/Emotes/thduel.gif</p>

[DL Rupper]

Snowbird, this is getting to be more than I can take. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: These little duelers are over the top. Now I'm really, really jealous.

[SnowbirdInFlight]

DL Rupper - 3/4/2007 8:30 AM Snowbird, this is getting to be more than I can take. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: These little duelers are over the top. Now I'm really, really jealous.</p>

</p>

<font size="4" face="comic sans ms,sand">Hee hee, I've got to watch what I write DL, I've got a cyber-stalker following me around on the board sending me private messages telling me how bad I am! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/picturepurfect/Emotes/hairraise.gif So, I guess this subject is just like... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/picturepurfect/Emotes/thdeadhorse.gif Plus I've been really sick with the stupid sinus infection http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/picturepurfect/Emotes/thsick.gif and don't feel like being hounded by the in-house resident hounder. I think he is a little bit http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/picturepurfect/Emotes/thcrazy.gif if you ask me http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/picturepurfect/Emotes/lma03.gif .</font></p>

<font size="4" face="comic sans ms,sand"> </font></p>

<font size="4" face="comic sans ms,sand">So, this is the last on this thread for me, I wouldn't want the thread police to harrass me anymore! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/picturepurfect/Emotes/gaah.gif !</font></p>

</p>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/picturepurfect/Emotes/thtravel.gif</p>

</p>

</p>

[TomAndJanie]

I'm going to try out the water softener/detergent mix. I'll hold off on using the bleach because I'm still concerned that it might have a bad affect on the septic system(s) I'm dumping into. Frankly, any fear of an ill affect on the valve seals is moot! Our fifth-wheel is a 2002 model and we've had problems with the black water valves twice, already. They are the cable operated valves and end up not fully closing, usually within about two years (of installation or repair.) I had them fixed the first time under warranty, but now I'm waiting on a new electric valve to come in so I can fix it myself this time. At least then I'll have an LED indicator to show when the valve hasn't closed. One of the gray water valves is doing the same thing, now. In nearly 20 years of RVing, the only valves that I've ever had trouble with are the cable operated ones and, of course, our RV has an enclosed belly so we have to cut holes to access the valve itself. I'm in the process of trying to clean out some build-up so the job of replacing the valve won't be quite as disgusting.

[texasgal03]

Good afternoon all!

I'm new to the boards and new to the RV world so I thought you guys could answer some questions for me regarding the Geo Method.

Seems like it works great - I understand that you're to use the water softener and detergent while using your tanks, but what about when you're done for the weekend and you're trailer is going to be stored for a week or so? Do I put some water, water softener, detergent and bleach in my black tank while it's stored to keep the odors down and such? Also, do I continue to put this mixture in my black tank/grey tank each time I dump or just every so often? If every so often, what do I put in it during the times I'm not putting it in my tank?

I really appreciate everyone's feedback as it seems there's some pretty knowledgeable folks around here! :)

BTW - I have a 2007 Jayco Jay Feather 29ft travel trailer. Much appreciated!

[Kirk]

What you have here is an excellent example of "RV folk lore." This supposed method was devised and promoted by a self proclaimed expert. Mr Bruni is a self proclaimed expert. I contacted the Calgon manufacturer and they asked what ever made me think that their product would clean an RV waste tank? If you use enough water in your waste tanks you can probably put most things into them with no great harm. This supposed "method" really does no harm as long as you don't over-use the suggest chlorine bleach. If you visit the sites of fulltimers, you will find that the vast majority use nothing at all but generous amounts of water. What the whole thing does best is to help him to sell his stuff and make money.

[texasgal03]

I appreciate the feedback, Kirk - :)

I'm currently using the standard tank chemicals in my black tank - is it best for me to continue putting in this chemical into my black tank while I have it stored? Suggestions?

[hertig]

The Calgon doesn't do anything about the sewage, but it increases the 'cleaning power' of the soap and water to help get the crud off the walls and floor of the tank. The Geo method seems to work for a lot of people who try it, and I don't think the guy who presented it gets anything from it, except perhaps pride.

You really don't want anything in your tanks when you are storing the RV. Before storing it, dump and flush the tanks really well. Store it empty. In fact, for long term storage, they make a grill which fits over your dump pipe so you can leave the valves open, but I haven't tried it. No problems so far just storing it empty.

If the chemicals you use are enzyme based, I have heard that heat kills the little buggers. If they are not enzyme based, they may or may not have a problem with long term storage; I'd be nervous about leaving anything in the tanks for a 'long time' (a month or more).

[texasgal03]

Thanks for the info John! I was under the impression that I had to leave some of those chemicals in my black tank while it's stored until my next travel? I've been flushing after dumping and I actually use the Flush King to backflush several times - I just thought I was supposed to keep those chemicals in there while it's stored to keep the odor down. Good to know! So, once I've dumped and finished backflushing, I just store it without putting anything else in my tank until I use it again, right?

Thanks again for the advice! :)

[hertig]

That's the way I was taught. Since enzymes are 'bacteria food' and chemicals have the potential for unintended chemical reactions, makes sense to me. Anyone have a different viewpoint?

There are two forms of back flusher, the Flush King and the other one. One shoots the water back up the pipe, and the other has a second valve so it fills the tank from the dump port back. I could not decide which I liked better, so I made a 'combo' by mounting a second valve on the end of the one which shot water back up the pipe. Now I could both pressure wash and backfill the tank. Worked well, but not as well as the built in flusher in my current RV.

[DL Rupper]

The Geo method works and my tank level sensors work better when I use the Geo method than when I use the commercial tank products. Therefore common sense tells me the calgon must help clean the tanks. I use the bleach occasionally to freshen the tanks and kill the bad guy germs, but only put a cup in ea tank about 1/2 hour before I dump. The bleach shouldn't hurt the tanks/valves/gaskets anymore than when it is used to sanitize the fresh water tank. :laugh:

[tnarvs]

what about the lube for u'r valves,,, if all that stuff is in the tank then are the valves working ok.. or do u really have to pul them to opem them up,,, what about the sensors ?? are they correct or do they need lube too...
Just some random things to think about... :) :)

[SnowbirdInFlight]

<font size="3" face="comic sans ms,sand">Texasgal, you'll find some people won't admit to some things that are just plain and simple in theory. They haven't tried it, have no fact to base their opinion on, but they just resist something they didn't think of themselves. The Geo Method does work and it is plain common sense. Ignore the ones who haven't tried it, yet feel the need to put it down. </font>

[hertig]

I don't know that the Geo method will 'lube the seals' adequately. Perhaps using some standard chemical which claims to maintain the seals instead of Geo every so often would be a good idea. Or I have seen 'lube seal' only chemicals at Camping World. Perhaps adding them to the Geo method would help.

[texasgal03]

Thanks for the tips everyone! I think I'll give the Geo a try and then put some standard chemicals in my tank while it's stored in between trips. Looking forward to see if it works! Thanks again and happy trails to y'all! :)

[Kirk]

texasgal03
As I said, it won't hurt anything as long as you use plenty of water. There really isn't anything in it that is harmful. You will find that there is a supporter for pretty much every theory and product. The key ingredient of whatever you choose to use is water. Just be careful if you start to mix things.

[rupertandsandy]

okay i am new so im wondering if since i cant find water softner anywhere around here would fabric softner liquid work to? if not then would just the landry soap and bleach do it? or can anyone tell me where you buy your water softern and what department it is sold in

[DL Rupper]

I buy "Calgon" at Wal-Mart in the laundry soap/detergent dept. It's usually in a small bottle and sells for about $4.50. I have found a powdered water softener out West in a big box (different brand) for considerably less money. But, it is really hard to find. I don't think the fabric softener works the same way.

[texasgal03]

Welcome aboard RupertandSandy - :)
I echo DL Rupper's post in that I also found liquid Calgon Water Softener at Walmart in the laudry detergent aisle. I should also tell you that you may not always find it though. I've looked at some other Walmarts or grocery stores in my area and sometimes it's not there. The liquid Calgon tends to be on the high side as far as $ goes, but I think it's worth it. I tried it out for the first time this past weekend and let me tell you, all kinds of stuff came out of my black tank - :o Of course, also using Kirk's suggestion, I used lots and lots of water during my stay and backflushed several times with my Flush King. I was very pleased - :) I also used a little bleach in the tanks while backflushing so I'm curious to see how that helped when I visit the trailer this weekend for it's first wash (just bought it May 1st).
Good luck and happy trails!

[rupertandsandy]

okay thanks i have people looking at all our local stores for calgon for me or anything that says water softner for the laundry. if all else fails i will be back with more can i use this's or thats' lol

[rupertandsandy]

thanks for all the help i found the calgon so i should be good to go

[hertig]

Fabric softener is COMPLETELY different from water softener. The Calgon (I got the boxed stuff from Safeway) tends to 'soften' the water, making it better for cleaning. Sort of 'turbo boost' for the detergent...

[DL Rupper]

Hey texasgal03, be careful with the bleach. Don't use too much and don't leave it in your tank for too long. It may have a corrosive affect on your valves/seals. I usually only leave it in a short period of time.

[texasgal03]

Thanks DL - I put a little bleach in a lot of water and then dumped it so I'm hoping it was diluted enough to not cause any problems. As a precaution, I may go ahead and run some more water through it this weekend and dump it again. Thanks for the heads up! :)

[javaseuf]

Well, I just got back from my latest trip after using the Geo Method for the first time.
I must say that I am pleased with the results. The sewage had very little, if any, odor when I dumped. Time will tell if the process will get my sensors clean so they can begin working properly again.
I used a liguid water softner since I couldn't find a powdered, added 2 cups of Gain powdered laundry detergent and a cup of bleach.

Now, to the guy that condemed ones that flush bleach into a sewer system, where does your bleach go that you are using in your laundry? Sorry, but I use bleach a few times a week in my sewer system at home when I do laundry and haven't had any failure in the 14 years I've been doing it.

Another kudos from this Geo believer.

[texasgal03]

That's great to hear javaseuf! I have to say that I have yet to hear one bad thing about the Geo so each time I hear something positive, it makes me feel that much more confident in the method. :)
I also use a liquid version of the softener and I use liquid detergent - I figure the powdered versions may take longer to dissolve.
Thanks for sending a positive message and we'll see you down the road!

[SnowbirdInFlight]

<font size="2" face="comic sans ms,sand">We got a brand new Super Center Wally World and I could not find the water softner, so finally I ask the guy who worked there and he pointed it out. Small bottles, bottom shelf and blended in... very hard to see. I told the guy no wonder I couldn't find it because it was in a bad spot. He said he was surprised they still sold it because it didn't sell very well. I told him that they should put it in the RV section and they would probably sell it out, lol.</font>

[DL Rupper]

If it helps clean out a #$%@&* black tank, it pbobaly works really good in the washing machine. Think I'll try it on a batch of clothes. :laugh: :approve:

[Kirk]

Most fulltimers sooner or later come to a point where they use only water. Putting a bunch of other stuff in the tank is just pouring money into it.

[DL Rupper]

Kirk does have a good point. Unless you have an RV that isn't vented properly and your tank(s) emit noxious odors, you probably only need to clean it/them out occasionally with calgon and detergent for your own sense of well being. Lots of water will keep it rinsed out. I use the calgon in an ongoing fight with my 12 year old monitor sensors. I'm determined to bring them back to full usage and calgon seems to work best. I'm not sure why I'm fighting this monitor issue as I pretty well know how long I can go between tank dumps. Between the chemicals and calgon/detergent I have probably spent enough money chasing this issue to purchase new tanks and sensors. Oh well, can't think of a better way to spend my time and money. Whatever, turns you on.

I think most of us go around worrying we are stinking up the campground. That's exactly what the tank chemical manufactures want us to think and they certainly gear their advertisements to that point of view.: :bleh: :approve:

I do occasionally use a valve lubricating chemical (coconut oil) to keep my tank valves operating smoothly. Not even sure the lubricant is required. :o

[calbrewin]

My 1st post on this site, I have had my trailer for 2 years, not as seasoned as many here. I try to get out 7-10 times a year, mostly extended weekends. The Geo method is the only method I have used since I got the trailer, as I had done alot of reading and searching online on how to keep up my trailer before I purchased one. I like the Geo Method, my sensors work great, no odor, and easy to do. I do usually put detergent, softener, and a little bleach into my black tank along with 5--10 gallons of water so it agitates and cleans tank thoroughly on the drive. :)

[boomerboater]

Hmmm! Exciting discussion on a really nasty subject. Since my wife and I had "the mountain of death" last summer I have learned a lot! We DO fill the tanks completely now, and sometimes intentionally travel to our next destination so things get nice and sloshed around. I will try the GEO method. The water softener sounds logical. Thanks for all the info! Boomer

[JanetG]

We never use chemicals in our black tank and we use Scott's one ply toilet paper, not the made for RV type. No problems. We slosh with bleach added as we drive too---very effective.

[DL Rupper]

Hey calbrewin and JanetG, welcome to the forum. Keep on posting, we need all the RV experience, expertise and adventures new members can bring to the forum. :)

[TexasClodhopper]

Hey, DL! With that welcome to the new members, you just passed the century mark! You get a red star! ;) :)

[DL Rupper]

I hope that doesn't mean I'm a "red" from the old Cold War days. :laugh:

[TexasClodhopper]

Far, far from that, mister. We all know that!

[Kirk]

JanetG

As you can easily see, this is a pretty hot topic with many people and some take the experience of others as a personal attack! After seven + years of fulltime RV living and more than 35 years of RV ownership, we have tried most of the stuff out there and like every experienced fulltimer we know, have come to the point of not wasting money buying commercial additives or home brew stuff. But the key is to always use generous amounts of water as that will overcome the short comings of just about anything you put into your wast tanks. Use a toilet paper that is "septic friendly" as well and with lots of water you will not have problems. We happen to be of the opinion that we should all be moving to a more environmentally friendly way of living and as such I would never use bleach because it is a killer of natural bacterias that make septic systems and sewer plants work. But even that won't damage much unless you use far more than any home brew I am aware of advocates. Also, the chlorine in bleach breaks down by 50% every 72 hours or so in hot weather and over time in all conditions so the long term harm is minimal. Three things that I would consider vital no matter what you choose to believe about adding things to the waste tanks. First, always use lots of water. Second, never dump the black tank unless it has 1/2 or so of it's volume to cause a rush of fluid and carry out any solids still there. Third, get some type of flush tool or system and use it on a regular basis to prevent any build-up of solids that stay in your tanks.

[murfette]

New to RVing. The Geo method is something I am looking into. One question - if you no longer use chemicals to break down the solid waste, what breaks it down? Maybe I overlooked something. Thanks in advance. :)

[TexasClodhopper]

Actually, for most of us, the solid waste doesn't stay in the tank long enough to need "breaking down" with chemicals.

It isn't a septic system. It is a storage tank.

The chemicals can only hope to deodorize your system until you dump it.

The object of all of these two methods, Geo or just lots of water, is to make it harder for the solids to stick to the inside. That way they get flushed out during the dump.

Did I mention that most RVs don't have 'septic systems' installed? Just storage tanks.

[hertig]

Yep, I don't care if it breaks down or not. As long as it leaves when I ask it to :)

[Kirk]

murfette,

The natural bacteria that is in your waste tanks when you use them will break things down in a fairly short time, under normal circumstances. That is what makes a septic system such as most rural homes use, work as it does. There are additives that are designed to encourage or enhance that natural action in either a septic system or in the RV waste tanks. Since we are talking RVs, if you look in any RV supply store you will find all kinds of products for waste tanks. There are several chemicals, bacterial products and also oxygenation products which just speed and enhance the action of natural bacteria that is already there. In a wast tank there are two types of bacteria, aerobic and anaerobic. The aerobic bacteria are those that thrive in an environment that has a good supply of oxygen and that is why the oxygenation products are out there. The bacterial products also add aerobic bacteria to speed the process in that way. When you use large volumes of water you encourage the aerobic bacteria growth since all water has free oxygen dissolved in it. All of the bacterial products work on that basis.

Anaerobic bacteria is bacteria that flourishes in low oxygen environments and it is also what creates the odors that come from waste tanks. Most of that odor is from grasses that are high in sulfur compounds such as hydrogen-sulfide. Free oxygen will kill most anaerobic bacteria if it is there in large enough quantities. And that is one of the reasons for the oxygenation products.

The various chemical products work in totally different approaches from either of these. What they do is to kill all bacteria or as nearly as they can, to thus prevent growth of anaerobic bacteria and prevent odors. They then also supply chemicals which break down the solids chemically, rather than naturally. They were the first products on the market for the purpose and were the only ones for a long time. Today they are considered by most people to be environmentally unfriendly. In large enough quantities they can effect the operation of septic systems or even city sewer systems. Most studies support the belief that it would be quite unusual to see a large enough quantity to cause problems, but since this is a hotly debated subject that most of us are not expert on, the majority of the RV world is moving to the more environmentally friendly products to make sure.

As a seven year +, fulltimer I have found that most who stay fulltime for long sooner or later stop using much of anything by way of chemicals and just be very generous with the use of water, thus to take advantage of the natural bacterial action. That works well for most of us, but we are also mostly traveling with only two people so the tanks fill fairly slowly and that allows more time. In hot weather we do use an oxygenation product from time to time, and we have also used bacterial additives on occasion, but mostly we are generous with the use of water in both the black and the gray tanks. I think that most fulltimers also from time to time add a 1/2 tank or so of water and some strong detergent before travel to slosh around inside of the tank while traveling and thus to clean it.

The "Geo Method" is the invention of Charles Bruni, who also uses his website to generate an income. I have known quite a number of people who have tried his home brew and some say it works, others disagree. I have not tried it since we find that water does the job just fine and I really do not see any reason to waste money on either commercial products or on some home brew. I also contacted the Calgon company to ask if their product had any positive effect on this process and was told that it would not. At the same time, I really doubt that it will do any harm either if you always use ample water when you flush and are careful to not use too much bleach since that will kill the natural bacteria if used in large enough quantity. But I have not tried it and I don't plan to do so. For that reason, I don't support it but that same thing is true of commercial products as well, and those I have used. Mostly I just don't like to waste money. But reading this thread should make you aware of the strong feelings of many on this subject. My advice is that you use a septic friendly toilet paper and use generous amounts of water in both tanks and go from there. If you want real expertise, I suggest that you contact some waste treatment operators and engineers and also an environmental chemist as well. Since there are none of either that post here (to my knowledge) most of what you read by any of us is just opinion.

[amywibbing]

I just tried the GEO method a couple of weeks ago. I haven't done the bleach thing yet, but did the Calgon. I must say I am very impressed. The black tank odor is completely gone, which I didn't expect. Even with a brand new RV, my black tank didn't smell "clean". Not too yucky, mind you, but definitely not good. So after reading this thread, I tried it. Really great results.

This board is great for newbies like myself. I have learned so much just in the last month or so, and I really appreciate everyone who comments. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!

Amy

[benwd]

sezkirk----"The "Geo Method" is the invention of Charles Bruni, who also uses his website to generate an income. I have known quite a number of people who have tried his home brew and some say it works, others disagree. I have not tried it since we find that water does the job just fine and I really do not see any reason to waste money on either commercial products or on some home brew. I also contacted the Calgon company to ask if their product had any positive effect on this process and was told that it would not."

Lots of folks make a little money off their website and I don't see the relevance of that to the efficacy of the geo method for cleaning tanks. And what kirk claims that the guy at calgon actually said seems to have changed with time. You can call ten people at a company and get ten different answers regarding their product. Kirk has had a personal beef with mr. bruni for a long time and continues to put down his 'method'. In fact water softener works on stuff in the tank just like it works on stuff in your washing mashine. Everyone you ask will tell you the geo method works fine for its intended purpose except a few with a burr in their saddle.

[SnowbirdInFlight]

<font size="3" face="comic sans ms,sand">Reminds me of my dad, lol. When my husband went to work for my dad he would try and help by telling him how he could improve on the business. Very solid, helpful ideas. But, my dad would say, &quot;We've been doing it this way for thirty years and it's worked for us!&quot; He wouldn't even try anything different. I guess it's a good thing the Wright brothers never listened to anyone tell them they would never fly, lol.</font></p>

<font size="3" face="comic sans ms,sand">I say, if you've never tried it, don't knock it.</font></p>

<font size="3" face="comic sans ms,sand">As far as Mr. Bruni making money off this method, I really don't see how unless he owns stock in Calgon, because I buy mine at Wally World and I use different detergents. So, he makes no money off of me.</font>
</p>

[SnowbirdInFlight]

<font size="3" face="comic sans ms,sand">Reminds me of my dad, lol. When my husband went to work for my dad he would try and help by telling him how he could improve on the business. Very solid, helpful ideas. But, my dad would say, &quot;We've been doing it this way for thirty years and it's worked for us!&quot; He wouldn't even try anything different. I guess it's a good thing the Wright brothers never listened to anyone tell them they would never fly, lol.</font></p>

<font size="3" face="comic sans ms,sand">I say, if you've never tried it, don't knock it.</font></p>

<font size="3" face="comic sans ms,sand">As far as Mr. Bruni making money off this method, I really don't see how unless he owns stock in Calgon, because I buy mine at Wally World and I use different detergents. So, he makes no money off of me.</font>
</p>

[Kirk]

sez benwd: and sez and sez and sez !

[sharring]

Geometricenigma, do human bodies produce ammonia, at least maybe a small amount? If so is it good to mix bleech and ammonia? Would it be ok to put a pine oil cleaner in you tanks once in a while. It seems like this would be a good way of keeping the valves working freely.

[Kirk]

Pine oil will damage the seals in the tanks, or so it has been printed in RV magazines. I've never tried it so don't really know.

[im2cuteferu]

"What the whole thing does best is to help him to sell his stuff and make money."

Is he selling Calgon, laundry detergent and bleach?

[SnowbirdInFlight]

im2cuteferu - 10/10/2007 7:57 PM &quot;What the whole thing does best is to help him to sell his stuff and make money.&quot; Is he selling Calgon, laundry detergent and bleach?</p>

</p>

Not that I can tell.</p>

http://cbruni.googlepages.com/
</p>

[DL Rupper]

I think im2cuteferu :kiss: was being facetious. :laugh: